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Aloha, and welcome to episode 2 in a three-part series on pedagogy in the Hawaiian Islands.
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My name is Noah Ransland, and I am a student from the University of Massachusetts Amherst
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interning here at the Human Restoration Project.
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Before we get started, I wanted to let you know that this is brought to you by our supporters,
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three of whom are John O'Brien, Keith Mathias, and Trevor Olayo.
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Mahalo Nui for your ongoing support.
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You can learn more about the Human Restoration Project on our website, humanrestorationproject.org,
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or find us on X, Instagram, or YouTube.
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In this episode, we delve into the research of Dr. Stacey Potess and her place-based pedagogical
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framework for Hawaiian youth.
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Stacey Potess, Ph.D., is an assistant professor at the University of Hawaii at Manoa College
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of Education and Secondary Mathematics.
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Dr. Potess currently teaches undergraduate and graduate courses in teacher preparation,
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including secondary mathematics models and multicultural education.
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Previously, she worked as a mathematics lecturer at the University of Hawaii West Oahu for
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five years and as a secondary mathematics teacher for 13 years in the Department of
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Education.
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She focuses on contextualizing mathematics education by incorporating mathematics, culture,
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and sustainability.
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Her research is rooted in Hawaii and influenced the development of a framework that includes
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place-conscious pedagogy, culturally responsive pedagogy, and critical ethnomathematics pedagogy.
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Hi, Dr. Potess.
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Thank you for joining me today.
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Hey, thanks for having me.
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Your dissertation that you did in ethnomathematics, I read it and it's super interesting.
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And I want to know, first off, what motivated you to go into pedagogy and ethnomathematics
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as your area of academic interest?
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Yeah, thanks for reading it.
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So I was born and raised in Hawaii and I spent a lot of time near the ocean growing up.
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And my dad was a fisherman, so I spent hours at a time at the beach.
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And I can remember spending time in the tide pools and I was so fascinated by everything.
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But it wasn't until later in life, I realized just how much I learned by just being there,
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simply observing, you know, wind direction, tide changes, all of that, just by just being
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there.
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And so there's this ʻOlelo noʻeʻau or a Hawaiian proverb that clearly speaks to that.
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And it goes, ʻNāna ka maka, hoʻOlohe ka pepeʻau, paʻa ka waha.
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Observe with the eyes, listen with the ears and shut the mouth.
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And so that was kind of my childhood.
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But when I went to school, learning was very different for me.
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And so I don't know if you've seen them, if you guys have seen the movie Moana, but she
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had like this very strong pull towards the ocean, right?
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And I think it's very common for islanders to also be very just drawn towards the ocean.
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And I also felt that.
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But when I was in school, I can really remember high school specifically, I remember always
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trying to choose the window seat.
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And I would just stare out the window and look at all the elements outside.
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And especially in math class, I feel like math class is a lot about memorization and
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procedures for me.
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And so I just would think to myself, why can't we be studying math outside?
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Look at all the things that are happening.
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And I would actually be making predictions about what the waves look like that day, instead
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of really focusing on the math that I was supposed to be focusing on.
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So also later, I taught mathematics for 13 years at a public high school.
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And for the majority of those 13 years, I can really say that I was just consumed by
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state test scores and standards.
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And it really wasn't until my last two years teaching that in high school that I realized
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that.
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And those last two years, I volunteered to teach this class called modeling our world.
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And that class just came out.
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And the typical student in that class just didn't like math.
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Some of those students had previously failed math.
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And some of those students just needed a last credit just to graduate.
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And so I took that as an opportunity.
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And I thought to myself, what is the best way to teach this class in a way that students
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can benefit?
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And so my entire curriculum was based on projects.
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We did projects every quarter, projects like car loans, building a city, shark tank, designing
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selling t-shirts.
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And I've never had so many students in my class during lunch and after school.
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And one student even came back the following year and she said, my car broke down.
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My mom took me to the dealership.
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And guess what?
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I brought my car loan project to the dealership.
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And I was completely just blown away.
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For me, this was learning.
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And this was the point of no return in terms of how I taught mathematics.
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And so as that was happening, that pull towards the ocean continued, sparked my interest
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in sustainability.
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And at the same time, bits and pieces, I was learning about the overthrow of the Hawaiian
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Kingdom in 1893.
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And I was just shocked and in disbelief about things that I had no idea about and happened
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to a place where I lived my entire life.
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And at the same time, I was starting to notice with that, the beaches that I was growing
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up on were starting to really change.
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And so I realized that all these topics, mathematics, culture, sustainability, they're all very
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much related.
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And so this is where my interest in pedagogy and ethics mathematics stemmed from.
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Great.
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And so in your dissertation, you sort of describe this IANA-based framework and you highlight
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three core elements of it.
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There's this little triangle and you have all these elements.
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And so the three elements that I want to talk about are this place consciousness, cultural
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responsiveness, and this idea of critical ethno-mathematics.
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And so could you describe what those are and explain how they sort of fit together into
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one cohesive framework?
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Right.
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Yeah.
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So if you could visualize what you're explaining kind of in a triangle, the three components
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are situated in like a lo-kahi symbol in balance and harmony, all trying to work together with
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each other.
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And the epistemology behind the framework is sort of based on three theories.
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So sociocultural learning theory, cultural capital theory, and critical theory.
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And so really like what counts is knowledge in math education.
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It plays a central role in sociocultural perspectives with roots in Vygotsky's theory of learning.
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And it's based on the idea that the learner's environment plays a pivotal role in his or
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her learning development.
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And in other words, learning is a social process.
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And then cultural capital theory, Bordeaux's, by Pierre Bordeaux, states that math is historically
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refined through social structures that privilege certain groups.
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And so learners engage in this activity with a habitus, and it's shaped by their socialization
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within the family, their home, and immediate environment.
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And this shapes the way they act and interpret their world.
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So consequently, academic success for students is in part shaped by where the habitus is
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aligned to the habitus that's expected in schools.
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And then lastly, critical theory, right?
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It draws from Paulo Freire's problem-posing pedagogy, where students develop the power
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to perceive critically the way they exist in the world.
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And that's opposed to depositing information into students and what he calls the banking
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education process.
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And so he also seeks to rehumanize education, where students become agents of curiosity,
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agents of change.
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And so the idea of these three kind of theories together developed the start of this framework.
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And so the three components within the framework are there's Hawaiian phrases that I use to
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kind of name them.
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And there's pilina, kuleana, and pono.
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So pilina, we'll start with that component, right?
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And that's where place-conscious pedagogy comes into play.
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And pilina is loosely defined as an association, relationship, a connection.
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And so in this particular framework, pilina refers to connection between teacher and student,
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connection with environment, and connection to one's community.
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And so that's where place-conscious education really comes into play, where students get
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to explore the place where their school is situated and get to understand the places
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that each of them come from and really get engaged with that and bring it into the classroom.
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And so they develop this sense of belonging and sense of Hawaii while they're in that
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process, right?
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And then that leads to the second component, which is kuleana.
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And kuleana is speaking of values, responsibility.
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And once students gain that connection through that pilina component, they can start to understand
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the values and responsibilities that they hold.
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But they can't get there yet if they're not yet connected, right?
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And so this is where culturally responsive education comes from.
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You really can't talk about place, I think, without talking about culture, because they
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go hand in hand with each other.
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But once students start to really understand their kuleana for certain places, then and
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only then will they be able to act upon it, right?
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They can make choices, they can speak up for these certain places.
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And so that's where the last component, pono, comes into play.
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And pono is a very vast, there's a very large definition, but really, it's like righteousness,
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uprightness, moral, correct, right?
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And so maintaining balance with these relationships and connections built on values, responsibility,
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connection, requires living with that conscious decision to do right.
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So that's where critical ethnomathematics comes into play, where once they go through
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all of this, they're learning mathematics, they begin to see it as a tool.
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Now how can I use this math to really contribute to the community where I'm from, make contributions
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to any kind of issues that are going on within the world?
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So those are the three components in that framework that kind of work together but also
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are individually very, very heavy, but not meant to be separated from each other.
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This framework is also based on Naho Pena'a'o.
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And Naho Pena'a'o is a framework that has been put out into the DOE, Department of Education
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School System in 2015.
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And it really reflects Makahana Ka Ike, so in doing one learns, and it's based on these
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six core values of sense of belonging, responsibility, excellence, aloha, total well-being, and
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Hawaii.
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And so all of that kind of working in collaboration with the framework is what is intended behind
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the framework.
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It's interesting to me that you use the term tool to describe math.
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So a little bit about me, I'm actually a math major, and I definitely have sort of developed
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in this, I think maybe more Western-centered idea of what mathematics is, but particularly
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from the perspective of viewing math as something valuable in and of itself, like philosophy.
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Viewing math more from a philosophical framework than from a tool-based framework or a usefulness.
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And something that struck me in reading about critical Hawaiian pedagogy is that that understanding
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of math specifically, but in general, the sort of culture of academics, I don't want
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to say is rejected necessarily, but it's certainly not emphasized.
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So I'm curious from my perspective as someone who thinks that math should be taught not
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just on its own, but certainly to some degree as something to be studied for its own sake.
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I'm curious if you think that there's any room in your framework for math to be valuable
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in and of itself or only really as a tool to explore more culturally or personally relevant
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topics.
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Yeah.
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So, well, in terms of math, and if you think of a math student in the classroom, I think
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that every student, indigenous or not, local or not, Hawaiian or not, all have a kuleana
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behind why they're in that certain classroom, why they're located in that certain space.
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And I think when we're in the classroom, oftentimes it's really easy to really just forget about
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simply that, why are we teaching these students math?
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Why is this student here in this math class?
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And I think if we can situate math in terms of what is real for them in terms of the context
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behind the math, then you won't hear that question anymore like, how am I going to use
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this in real life?
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That's a question that is often wondered in math classes by students.
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And that will be no longer because it will already be real life, they'll already be applying
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it within the framework.
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And so math in terms of like a Western context, right, is a lot of memorization, following
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the formula and just procedure over and over and over.
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And for some that might be okay, but I think in the world in which we live in now, there's
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a lot of, you know, AI is taking over, AI has there's a lot of play in education right
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now, too. Right. And so we really need critical thinkers.
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And if we just have our students in terms of math, memorize, memorize, memorize, then
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they're going to lose that critical part.
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And we want to humanize them.
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Right. We want to see them as humans being able to think for themselves and apply the
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math. And so when they get out into the workforce, they're not just another robot spitting out
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information, they're able to adjust, adapt to situations and they'll be seen as more
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valuable. And so the math, I think there's this probably a small percentage of students
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that was that will be like math majors, right, or mathematicians.
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And so I think teaching to a framework in terms of context and being able to relate it
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to the students, I think, will be a way a more universal approach to teach for all
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students. So, yeah.
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Yeah, that's super interesting. Yeah, for sure.
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I mean, I definitely see that because, you know, I'm I'm weird.
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And the fact that I like math is probably a little weird for a lot of people.
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But yeah, I definitely see that for the majority of students, they're not going to think about
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math the way that I do or the way that someone who wants to go into math does.
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And I definitely see the necessity for your average student who just needs to learn the math
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that they need to learn to do the things that they need to do and work the jobs that they need to
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do, that they still need to have a framework for understanding it that allows them to find
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themselves in it. I really do see that.
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Yeah, because I think that's even in the under the best of circumstances, I don't necessarily think
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there's going to be a lot of people who find that that passion in math.
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And so sort of moving on from that, in what areas do you see, you know, focusing on
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the specific problems in Hawaiian education?
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In what areas do you see Native Hawaiian youth falling behind in school?
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And how does this framework that you've constructed address those discrepancies?
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Yeah, so that's, I guess, kind of related right to the previous question and in terms of
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context. But according to the US Census, Hawaii has the highest diversity index rate
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at 76 percent.
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And so that should say that, you know, education should be a little bit different in terms
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of who we're teaching to.
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So also along with that, Hawaii's math scores are consistently below average, below that
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proficiency mark. And so it's even it's even lower for Indigenous or Pacific communities.
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Native Hawaiian students in particular, along with Pacific Islander students, are among the
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lowest performing groups.
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And so if we if we understand that Indigenous people carry this deep and intimate
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connection to place, I mean, it's evident in place names in Hawaii.
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If you look into place names in Hawaii, there's mo'olelo or stories that are connected to
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all of the places and they're passed down from generation to generation.
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It really is a map or guide that really helps people get back to their roots.
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And also, if you in Hawaii, a common question if you meet someone, and I know you probably
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heard this coming to Hawaii is, where are you from?
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What school did you graduate from?
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That's a common question when you first meet someone in Hawaii.
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Why is that? Well, that's because people feel more comfortable when they're connected to
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places and people that are from the same area.
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And they really value and they're proud of where they come from.
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And that's that building palina part. Right.
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And so in the classroom, it's no different.
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Say you have a student that you find out is interested in diving.
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It likes to dive. The student likes to dive.
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If you ask a student who likes to dive about that, you would be blown away at the amount of
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knowledge that can come from these students.
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And so I think inviting that knowledge into the classroom takes away all of the anxiety
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in the math class and the stigma that I'm no good at math.
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I'm just not a math person. Right.
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All of those negative identities that's associated with math can kind of be broken down a
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little bit because students now have a voice in the class.
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Students cannot participate in the mathematical discussions.
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They have something to contribute because there's a lot of math.
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If you think about diving, there's a lot of math in all of these students' interest.
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And so it's putting math into that cultural context that allows all students to participate,
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right, all the voices to be valued in the classroom.
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So I think the framework does just that.
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It helps those students to intersect their knowledge that they have already with new
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mathematical knowledge and then put it together into action.
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And so when math becomes more contextualized, they're more engaged, they're more invested,
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and they realize how much they can really do in math.
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And I think, you know, those issues, those problems with test scores and being below
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the proficiency mark, I think if we kind of focus more on the student, then those scores
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will come in terms of math.
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Do you think that this framework and this connection, you know, you talk a little bit
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about standardized testing, and I think in general, you know, there's potentially value
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in that, but I think that in general, I and a lot of other people interested in progressive
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would argue that, especially in the context like Hawaii, where there is such a deep rooted
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history of subjugation, you know, do you think that your framework points to and necessitates
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more fundamental structural changes in how education is done in Hawaii?
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I hope so.
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I really do hope so in terms of like how Hawaii is constantly, I think, going through struggles
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with land use, water use, and students are constantly battling outside of school as well
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with a lot of, you know, social emotional issues.
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And I think that this framework will help that and will help to kind of give them that
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opportunity to look at their education a little bit in terms of a different light and to see
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that, you know, it is it is something that they'll be able to use outside of the classroom.
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And a lot of the issues that are going on around them are are very much related and
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very much something that they don't have to have a hands on approach to.
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Right. They can they can place themselves in it and they can, in fact, contribute to
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what's going on. Awesome.
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I think that answered your question.
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I'm not sure. Yeah, definitely.
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And I'm curious, have you seen or have you started to like do any work yet on implementing
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this framework in schools in Hawaii or otherwise?
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Yeah. So actually, I did a study on undergraduate students.
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There's 126 undergraduate students and I tested academic achievement and student
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motivation. And so implementing this framework, what I found was that at the end, the average
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math score or the average grade was an eighty nine point nine percent with a standard
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deviation of ten point one six.
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And so that's great. Right. That's that's huge.
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When you look more closely at that number, the maximum grade received was one hundred
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percent. But the minimum grade was a thirty six point one four percent.
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So really low grade. And this person, of course, didn't pass the class.
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Right. So this is undergraduate course.
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They need a 70 percent in the class to move on to the next math course or to get credit.
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And so I looked a little bit more closely at those students who didn't pass.
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And what I found was just amazing, mind blowing.
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So when I looked closely at these, all these students who got 70 percent or below, I
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looked at the comments that they left in regards to the class.
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And it turns out that although they didn't pass, they have to take the class again.
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They didn't receive credit.
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They all left positive remarks.
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All of the comments were positive.
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In fact, one person and this is the person that scored the lowest, that thirty six point
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one four percent. This person says, I enjoyed the class.
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I like the connection of math to real issues and I've become more attentive to the
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environment. Another person that didn't pass said math was never appealing to me.
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The way the course incorporated Hawaiian culture and ecological, ecological
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preservation into the curriculum made it so much more enjoyable.
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So for me, even though these students didn't pass the course, they're
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still come out. They still come out of this course successfully.
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They're still coming out with being able to apply the math to be able to see the
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connections. And so for me, this was very much a success.
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Success and in terms of motivation, motivation was also measured
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quantitatively. And that was very similar to the average grade within at an eighty nine
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point eight percent. So students were equally motivated in terms of their academic
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success. So I hope to do more studies on this, you know, with a different population.
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This was done on undergraduate statistics students, and I hope to do more more
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projects like this, perhaps in the high school level with different a variety of
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classes. Right. Not just statistics, but algebra one geometry and all those
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different content topics in the high school level as well.
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Awesome. Yeah. And I've definitely noticed sort of going off of what you're saying,
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I've definitely noticed at least people my age, you know, younger, well, mid to
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younger Gen Z people, I've definitely noticed that there's this really strong
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pushback against sort of cultural hegemony.
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I feel like there's a lot of people now my age who are trying to sort of carve out
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and I'm sure this has always been true, but I've really seen this a lot now that
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there are students who are pushing back against the sort of like hegemonizing
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forces of the society we live in and carving out their identities for themselves
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and reclaiming their identities.
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Do you see your framework as responding to that or do you see it as as a framework
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that intends to sort of promote that?
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Yeah, I mean, I think the framework is very inviting and very yeah, I mean, it
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does it does help.
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And in terms of like student identity is huge.
27:09.380 --> 27:14.860
Right. And students are now in the in the phases where they want to speak out.
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They're becoming more attentive to who they are, to where they come from.
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And I think the framework allows for that, allows for including everybody.
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Into into the classroom.
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And so when I think students can bring that into the classroom, the learning only
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becomes more powerful.
27:34.740 --> 27:40.740
I think we continue if we put heads with individuals, then there's there's always
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going to be that wall up in terms of how in terms of the learning.
27:45.820 --> 27:49.580
Right. So I definitely think that the framework is inclusive for everybody and
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for for that kind of idea that identities are now being brought to the forefront of
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students and they're speaking out about it.
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So I love that. I love that everybody can be open and and be who they are in the
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classroom. I love that.
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And so sort of moving past the Hawaiian context, where do you see educators outside
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of that context able to use this framework that you've created?
28:20.180 --> 28:25.460
You know, how do you imagine it could be sort of retweaked and reworked for a variety
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of different contexts?
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Yeah. So one thing actually I noticed in the framework when I was doing a study is
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that there are actually students who were not from Hawaii that kind of was like a
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little bit unfamiliar with these Hawaiian terms that I am using within the
28:46.900 --> 28:48.580
framework or in the class.
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But at first, they're uncomfortable.
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But I think when we start to talk really about place, that's universal for everybody.
28:57.300 --> 28:59.940
Right. That that everybody can relate to place.
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Everybody's breathing the same air.
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We're all surrounded by the same ocean here in Hawaii.
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And and that's common for everybody to for and grounds for everybody to speak about.
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So in non native Hawaiian classroom context, I think the framework's focus on
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place conscious education is really a starting point.
29:24.820 --> 29:29.900
So in a sense, the framework can be applied to all classrooms, not just classrooms in
29:29.900 --> 29:35.220
Hawaii. And really, the framework's not meant to be like a step by step manual.
29:35.220 --> 29:40.940
Right. It's meant to be adaptive, to be fluid, depending on the teacher, depending on
29:40.940 --> 29:42.820
the student, depending on the location.
29:43.500 --> 29:49.820
That's what it's meant to do is to be able to put the curriculum in the hands of the
29:49.820 --> 29:55.660
educator and to bring their students into it and to really design it themselves based
29:55.660 --> 29:59.380
on the three components and the three pedagogical perspectives.
29:59.740 --> 30:09.460
And so the ultimate goal, I think, of of the framework is to not put an emphasis on on
30:09.460 --> 30:10.620
scores. Right.
30:10.620 --> 30:15.940
I really don't see academic achievement in terms of scores and grades, but really fostering
30:15.940 --> 30:20.380
critical thinking, providing tools for students to be able to see and support their
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communities no matter where they are, really just to be stewards in those aspects, in those
30:26.020 --> 30:31.300
places that they come from. And so I think in non-native Hawaiian classrooms or
30:33.460 --> 30:40.820
the framework is meant to adapt to that, is meant to take take a hold of this particular
30:40.820 --> 30:45.940
place that the educator is in and explore that.
30:46.180 --> 30:47.180
Yeah.
30:47.300 --> 30:52.020
Awesome. And then before we start to wrap up here, is there anything else about the work
30:52.020 --> 30:57.380
that you've done that you think is important that we haven't discussed so far?
30:58.780 --> 31:05.780
Well, it's definitely still a work in progress and it's been adapting as as we speak.
31:06.260 --> 31:17.140
But I think that I would I would like to say that the framework is meant for the educator
31:17.140 --> 31:26.860
as well to kind of go through this process of Pilina, Kuleana and Pono for themselves.
31:27.420 --> 31:33.060
So I've went through this process myself, I think, as as we've as I've developed the
31:33.060 --> 31:38.660
framework. And I think that would kind of be like the first thing I would say if an
31:38.660 --> 31:44.700
educator is thinking about this is to start with Pilina, go into the community, right,
31:44.700 --> 31:51.580
develop relationships and understand place and make those community connections, do
31:51.580 --> 31:56.340
community service, talk to the locals in the area and just try to understand some of the
31:56.340 --> 31:58.500
issues that are going around in the community.
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Develop that Pilina and then also ask yourself, what is my Kuleana as an educator?
32:06.780 --> 32:08.380
What are my responsibilities?
32:08.380 --> 32:10.740
Why am I here? What are my goals?
32:10.740 --> 32:12.060
What are my intentions?
32:12.300 --> 32:14.860
And how and lastly, how can I make a difference?
32:15.180 --> 32:21.260
Educators have this huge ability to impact so many people and can potentially create
32:21.260 --> 32:26.220
massive positive change in communities and environments.
32:26.220 --> 32:31.740
And so I would just advise anyone looking at the framework to think how they could go
32:31.740 --> 32:37.340
through this progression themselves and put themselves in in this progression before they
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can implement it in the classroom.
32:39.900 --> 32:41.980
And this sort of answers my last question.
32:41.980 --> 32:47.460
But, you know, moving on from just this particular framework, what advice would you give to
32:47.460 --> 32:54.660
educators who want to incorporate these ideas, but also just progressive pedagogy and critical
32:54.660 --> 33:00.860
pedagogy into their lesson plans, particularly in environments where maybe there's a little bit
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more hostility towards those ideas?
33:03.700 --> 33:08.660
Yeah, so really, yeah, same thing is just go through that progression.
33:08.660 --> 33:17.940
But with enough education, there's so many aspects to teaching for educators that it's
33:17.940 --> 33:22.860
so easy, right, to get caught up in standards and grades and not to say that they're not
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important, but and, you know, standards need to be included in lesson plans and curriculum.
33:29.260 --> 33:34.460
But I would say to start with the student, meet the students where they are, really think
33:34.460 --> 33:35.820
of the student first.
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And how can you get their voice?
33:39.540 --> 33:45.740
How can you understand them a little bit more before we start to insert all of these standards
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into our practice, really focus on the student?
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I think is huge and at the heart of education is focusing on the student.
33:56.140 --> 33:58.180
Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much for talking to me.
33:58.180 --> 33:59.820
It was great having you. Thanks, Noah.
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Thank you again for listening to our podcast at Human Restoration Project.
34:04.780 --> 34:08.100
I hope this conversation leaves you inspired and ready to start making change.
34:08.460 --> 34:12.180
If you enjoyed listening, please consider leaving us a review on your favorite podcast
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on our website, HumanRestorationProject.org.
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Thank you.
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