Systemic Social and Emotional Learning (SEL) w/ Dr. Emma McMain

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:14,800
Alright everyone, hello and welcome to our latest episode of our podcast.

2
00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,880
My name is Chris McNutt and I'm part of the Progressive Education Nonprofit Human Restoration

3
00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:19,880
Project.

4
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,760
Before we get started, I wanted to let you know that this is brought to you by our supporters,

5
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,360
three of whom are Daniel Kearney, Julia Valenti, and Leah Kelly.

6
00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,080
Thank you for your ongoing support.

7
00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,600
You can learn more about the Human Restoration Project on our website, humanrestorationproject.org,

8
00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,440
or find us on social media and YouTube.

9
00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,360
Today we are joined by Dr. Emma McMain.

10
00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:45,040
Emma works in the College of Education at Washington State University as a postdoctoral

11
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,840
teacher and researcher, focusing on assessment for pre-service elementary teachers, cultural

12
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,680
considerations in education, and social-emotional learning, aka SEL.

13
00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,920
Her work aims to promote social and ecological justice, seeing education as an important

14
00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,600
site of social transformation.

15
00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,300
Her recent works include Drawing the Line, Teachers Effectively and Discursively Question

16
00:01:07,300 --> 00:01:12,680
about What Counts as Appropriate Behavior in Schools, which dissects the power dynamics

17
00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:18,480
of classrooms in determining what is then, kind of scare quotes, appropriate behavior,

18
00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:25,800
the problem tree of SEL, a socio-political literature review, which contextualizes what

19
00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,960
SEL actually means in a classroom setting from a variety of perspectives and in history.

20
00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:35,680
So we reached out and wanted to talk more about this idea of SEL as systemic change

21
00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,240
versus SEL as an add-on.

22
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:44,320
So thinking about SEL in the lens of racism, sexism, neoliberalism, and more, especially

23
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,880
then considering the culture war and attacks on schools and how SEL is being framed.

24
00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,640
But before we dive into that, Emma, thank you for joining us on this discussion.

25
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:55,280
Yeah, thank you for having me.

26
00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,440
I'm excited to dive into it.

27
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,240
All right. Well, let's let's just jump right into that that last point, which is social

28
00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,040
emotional learning. I mean, SEL has been defined in many different ways.

29
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:11,960
Some conservative lawmakers see it as socialist or part of critical race theory.

30
00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,720
Some of us see it as like this app, this optional tag on.

31
00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,720
So, like, I think about doing yoga during standardized testing.

32
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:26,880
It's like a way for us to get through the issues that may be presented by the education

33
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:32,000
system itself. So could you provide or, you know, it could also be a systemic overall.

34
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:33,560
It could be a good thing as well.

35
00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:39,280
So could you provide an overview on what SEL is and like why this is the case?

36
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,120
Why are we all interpreting it in different ways?

37
00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:47,240
Yeah, all two of my favorite philosophers always say, like, start in the middle, because

38
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,640
I'm like, I don't know where to start. So I'll start in the middle.

39
00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:56,880
Because like you say, SEL is such a broad term that I feel like we have to treat it

40
00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:02,240
with nuance, right? Like in the midst of these culture wars and we have a lot of really

41
00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,960
conservative communities considering SEL as like a Trojan horse for critical race theory

42
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:12,800
or the newest variant of the CRT virus and just like bringing it under really brutal

43
00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:18,400
attack. And then I think in response to that, there can be this kind of panacea discourse

44
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,680
of like SEL is amazing and this like long awaited recognition of sociality and

45
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,760
emotionality in schools like huzzah, like we did it.

46
00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,560
And so I always think like, wait, let's back up a second.

47
00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,320
This isn't really a cited issue, it's a layered issue.

48
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:41,320
So I think one of those layers, which is kind of like a paradoxical layer, is that SEL is

49
00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:46,040
kind of new, but it's also really not new. Like you mentioned, the historical piece,

50
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:53,400
I'll do just kind of a quick like deep dive into how if we look at like the early 1900s,

51
00:03:53,400 --> 00:04:00,200
progressive education and the 1920s, there was like mental hygiene was a big push.

52
00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:06,600
How do we help students be good citizens and be emotionally healthy or hygienic?

53
00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,760
And then in the 1940s, there's this thing called life change curriculum,

54
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,360
then character education, like SEL has been going on since public schools were a thing.

55
00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,520
So it's kind of interesting to think about it as like this new thing.

56
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,440
But then at the same time, I think part of what has kind of like

57
00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:34,040
made SEL be so prolific, like since the 2000s, like early 2000s, is how it's making its way

58
00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:39,560
into learning standards and curricula and like being seen as even a formal accountability

59
00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:45,320
measure under ESSA, the Every Student Succeeds Act, like SEL is being treated as like a legitimate

60
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,560
part of schools. So to me, I think it's important to like recognize that like new,

61
00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:57,720
but not new and how even the backlash isn't new. There's always been groups saying like,

62
00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,240
this is parents job, not teachers job. Why are we doing this in schools?

63
00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:07,400
This is like stepping on family's toes. And so I think sometimes it's easy to be like

64
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,760
for SEL or anti SEL, but there's actually like some really important points in a lot of these

65
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:19,400
layers. So I mean, I could keep going on. I think one of the big things to me that I always try to

66
00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:27,640
separate is that there's a distinction that needs to be made between recognizing and valuing being

67
00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:33,240
social and being emotional and formally teaching or training that. Like to me, those things are

68
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:38,840
often collapsed, but it's like a really different thing to say, we value you as a social and

69
00:05:38,840 --> 00:05:44,920
emotional person versus like we are now going to like shape you into a certain group's definition

70
00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:50,760
of socially and emotionally competent. So that's why I kind of find myself like not easily on either

71
00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:56,280
side, but kind of like in the mangle of it all. I could keep going, but I'll pause there.

72
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:03,880
As you're, as you're talking about the, the mandated nature of it, I can't help but notice

73
00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:10,120
the connection to like PBIS, positive behavior incentive systems, because they tend to go hand

74
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:17,000
in hand. PBIS tends to be promoting good behavior again, like in scare quotes there because of how

75
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:24,520
that can be framed and what lens we're viewing that through. But there are things that seem to be more

76
00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:31,000
and more, I guess, mainstream. Most teachers are familiar with these terms. I'm sure that many

77
00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,840
teachers have familiarity with implementing programs into their classroom that might be SEL

78
00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:39,880
programs. They do it like an advisory period or home curriculum, or finding themselves

79
00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:45,000
inserting standards into a lesson plan about like valuing other people. I always find them very

80
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,360
silly because like, shouldn't you be doing that anyway? Do we really need to have that as a

81
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:55,240
standard? But, but that is conceptually something people are doing. So with that kind of said,

82
00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:02,920
what does it even mean to like, to be talking like, why are we talking about this? Like for

83
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:07,400
someone who's just like, who cares that it's being interpreted in different ways? What's the

84
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:14,520
gist of that? Yeah, because I mean, you mentioned like, one thing I also always want to call out

85
00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:19,480
when I think about the history is that, like the examples I mentioned, like progressive education,

86
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,720
character education, mental hygiene, these are all things that have been done within like the

87
00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,520
colonial school system. So I do always want to recognize like, let's look at feminist theories,

88
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:34,680
let's look at indigenous ways of being, who have been like, implicitly valuing sociality

89
00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:41,320
and emotionality since time immemorial. So it's also feels like kind of a, I don't know if ironic

90
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:47,800
is the right word, a really problematic erasure to suggest that like, okay, now this is a formalized

91
00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:54,440
thing in public schools, now we can talk about it. So like you say, I think it's problematic to say

92
00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:59,960
that if someone is skeptical about a certain program or about wanting to like teach it to the

93
00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:05,800
T that they don't value sociality and emotionality. Like that's something that concerns me. And then

94
00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:13,080
at the same time, like I sometimes get excited at like so much attention and like money and momentum

95
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:19,000
is behind this recognition of like social and emotional learning. So there was something else.

96
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:25,160
Oh, I was gonna share. This is kind of an extreme example from an educator and scholar named Cleo

97
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:31,560
Stearns, who I say all over the place. I love Cleo Stearns. And she's done a lot of like hands

98
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:37,240
on work observing elementary school classrooms that are unfolding like very scripted programs

99
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:44,040
of SEL. Like disclaimer, not all SEL programs are scripted. But she's looked at ones like second

100
00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:49,160
step. And the example is a first grade classroom that's going through the second step lesson,

101
00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:55,160
like this is our 30 minute SEL block. And the prompt is for the teacher to ask the students,

102
00:08:55,160 --> 00:09:00,840
like when is this recent time that you felt sad? And so a child raises his hand and he says, well,

103
00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,960
last night, I was really, really cold. This is like the middle of the winter in New England,

104
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:11,400
I was so cold and there's no heat in my house. And my blanket has holes in it. And I was shaking

105
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:17,400
and I couldn't sleep. I was so sad. And so the teacher who, to be fair, like Cleo Stearns,

106
00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:24,040
really believes as an empathetic person is also feeling very much like she has to maintain

107
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,520
fidelity to this script. So the teacher goes, thanks for sharing. Now, what do we do when we

108
00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:37,080
feel sad? We belly breathe. And so it's just like this moment. It's funny in a horrific way.

109
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:43,640
Yeah. So it's like, what happens when, okay, we did our SEL, but here's this stark example of

110
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:50,200
actually needing to look at the cause of why someone would legitimately feel something negative.

111
00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:55,880
And what happens when the onus of responsibility is on kids to deep breathe through oppression

112
00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:04,120
and through misogyny or racism or whatever it may be. It's like, okay, if we emphasize these

113
00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:09,720
programs more than like the meaning behind them, like we're really doing a disservice at the end

114
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,200
of the day. And I think a lot of SEL researchers would totally agree with that. But that is an

115
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:20,760
example of like, here's what can happen when we aren't careful. Yeah. That branded component of

116
00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:26,040
it, I think just tends to lean into that because that's how education products tend to work.

117
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:32,520
Generally you take what is a probably pretty good idea on its baseline and then brand and

118
00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,760
commodify it so that everyone can do it in the exact same way. Because if I start interpreting

119
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,520
it, then I'm going to eliminate that brand. It's no longer going to be exactly how they're

120
00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:47,320
saying it's going to work. And not nearly as an extreme as an example, but my experience with

121
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:52,600
SEL programs has even more so just been that there is not exciting. Like they're just boring. Kids

122
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:57,320
don't like them. Like we're going to do our team building activity and you're going to stack a deck

123
00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:01,160
of playing cards. And then whenever we share something, you're going to take one out like that

124
00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:08,120
kind of stuff. And it just feels illegitimate to the point where kids no longer see the value

125
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:15,160
in doing the SEL activities. So whereas we value these ideas of reflective thinking,

126
00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:22,440
even like things like meditation, things like that, kids just see that as kumbaya silly things

127
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,480
that you know, the guys like me with a man bun do at the coffee shop. Like they don't see it as

128
00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:32,760
legitimate practice. And therefore it has a counterintuitive effect of lessening the impact

129
00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:38,440
of SEL. Right. It becomes so cheesy sometimes. And again, this is where like I'm anticipating

130
00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:43,000
the pushback of people being like, yeah, that's SEL done wrong. But I think there's, there's a

131
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:48,040
limit to the conversation of reform. Like, well, we just need to do it better. Like at a certain

132
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:54,760
point, it's like something paradigmatically is like a little bit problematic maybe when it is

133
00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:01,480
assuming that we can script these things. Right. Because in addition to the systems of

134
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,680
oppression at large, like in terms of like, who's creating this curriculum?

135
00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:10,200
What do we mean when we're saying good SEL and who are we trying to shape people into being,

136
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:15,000
et cetera. There's also the fact that you had just mentioned like school itself can be an

137
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:20,280
oppressive space. And for many folks, I would argue most folks, school has a lot of oppressive

138
00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:25,320
tendencies because of how we rank and file kids who's dictating the curriculum and just the

139
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:33,560
general authoritarian nature of sadly most, most schools. So as a result, SEL tries to be

140
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:40,680
the panacea for the problems school itself is causing. I alluded to in the intro there,

141
00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:44,680
I think the classic example is like yoga or mindfulness techniques before a standardized

142
00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:49,400
test. So the standardized test is going to make us throw up. We don't want kids to be sick,

143
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:56,200
for four hours in this small dimly lit room. It's awful. So we'll have them do some deep

144
00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:01,000
breathing exercises to get through it as opposed to looking at the standardized test situation

145
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:07,960
itself. Yeah. And appropriate a bunch of cultures along the way. I mean, that's a whole other topic,

146
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:14,200
but yeah. Yeah. So with that said, I guess that builds into the question of

147
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:22,760
what does it mean to craft a strong SEL system? How do we navigate this whole field of different

148
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:28,760
interpretations of SEL to determine what we should be aiming for? I mean, the idea is then

149
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,480
changing systems, I would assume, like focusing on social justice, recognizing that the systems

150
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:39,480
need to change. What is the role of SEL in that? And in terms of like the research, the theory,

151
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:47,560
the history. Yeah. So, I mean, shameless plug for my own podcast. I've been working with a group

152
00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:53,080
of colleagues and friends on a podcast project called Unboxing Social Emotional Learning. You

153
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:59,480
can find it on Spotify. It's very much in the beginning stages, but I guess my answer to that

154
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:08,200
is partly, it depends. Because I think one thing I love about having critical dialogue around this

155
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,960
is that it's really tricky. And I feel like I need to, we all need to have kind of our

156
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,680
incoming assumptions challenged a lot. Because on the one hand, I would say, well, SEL can be a

157
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:24,120
really great driver of social justice, or it can be channeled into like transforming our school

158
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:30,440
systems. And then on the other hand, like you mentioned, can actually just be reinforcing

159
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:37,560
those things. So I think one of the biggest things to me is like whose voices are in this curriculum.

160
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:43,800
So regardless of whether it's called SEL, is it something that's built on community values?

161
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,600
The caveat to that is let's say that the community values, the loudest voices are very white

162
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:54,120
supremacists. Like then maybe we have to think about who's kind of making, who's shaping this

163
00:14:54,120 --> 00:15:01,080
program. But how is it different depending on the context it's in or the region it's in? So like I'm

164
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:06,360
all for kind of grassroots, like bottom up SEL. That means also including kids' voices.

165
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,680
What do they think it means to be social and emotional? That's not something that they are

166
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:17,400
like have to be trained into. We're born being social and emotional. So like not treating kids

167
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:24,760
like their incoming ways of being in the world need to be fixed. So I guess at the end of the

168
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:30,040
day to me, whether or not it's called SEL, it's about kind of building some kind of program or

169
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:36,040
approach that's flexible enough to actually like really change depending on the needs of the

170
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:42,360
community, including again those who are often excluded from conversations, including children.

171
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:51,240
Oh, I was going to say also like back to your point about recognizing schools as they can be

172
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:57,400
a transformative force and like a reinforcer of systems of oppression. I think every SEL program

173
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:02,280
has to reckon with that. I've had a quote going through my mind for a couple of weeks from a

174
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:09,000
webinar session with Dr. Megan Bang, who's an amazing Indigenous scientist and researcher. She's

175
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:17,560
at Northeastern University in Chicago. I think I got that right. But she shared a lot of stories

176
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:23,000
and one of the quotes she said was like as an Indigenous woman, it would be irrational for me

177
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,400
to walk into a school system and immediately assume that my best interests are at heart.

178
00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:32,440
And that's like a really hard statement, I think, especially for really well-intending teachers to

179
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,560
sit with, teachers that want school to be a positive site and that want to like build an SEL

180
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:43,640
program to make kids feel at home and included and safe. But I think part of an SEL program should

181
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:49,640
involve like the adults, the teachers reckoning with being like historical actors. Like you're

182
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:55,960
in a school system that is the same system that was part of the boarding school movement to remove

183
00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,680
Indigenous children from their families. Like how do we recognize that our good intentions can be

184
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:07,320
part of that program and like our reckoning with ourselves as historical actors in a site that's

185
00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:13,240
enacted harm is also like part of that context. So a lot of it means like an SEL program should

186
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:18,920
involve the adults doing a lot of self-reflexive work. Like what does what does emotionality mean

187
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,280
to me? How have I been taught to like cope with or handle or relate to my emotions?

188
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,080
So it should be like a very self-reflective thing. I feel like I'm talking in circles,

189
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,840
like I don't have a how-to, but these are some of the considerations that I think-

190
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:38,200
Yeah, there's a couple of things you're saying I think that make a lot of sense to me as someone

191
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,400
who, I mean, I was in the classroom for 10 years and there's certainly a cognitive dissonance that

192
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:50,120
happens daily the deeper and deeper you dive into this stuff because you know that the systems are

193
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,720
built on racist, neoliberal, sexist, all the things that we listed at the beginning. It's

194
00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:04,840
built on these tendencies both from a like kind of contextualized view. So like you it's in the

195
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:09,720
communities that they find themselves in, but also like literally like through the sense of

196
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:15,800
boarding schools, like they are quite literally designed to do this. So that's something that

197
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:22,120
you're constantly facing while walking that tightrope against. Public schooling is also

198
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:26,680
a public good because you could come to the conclusion of saying, well, we should just not

199
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,800
have public schools at all because look at how terrible they are, like burn it all down.

200
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,760
But in my view, in reality, what that would lead to is just a bunch of charter schools,

201
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,280
like private industry would capitalize on that. It wouldn't lead to some kind of,

202
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,760
I don't know, like positive beneficial change with the community schooling their kids. I just

203
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:48,200
don't think that would happen in the United States. So with that said, the second point

204
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:54,520
that you're diving into, which I'm thinking about what I was going to say, there was something you

205
00:18:54,520 --> 00:19:01,080
just said that made sense in regards to the SEL component. Oh, talking with kids. I know. So

206
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,800
the second part of what you're saying regarding talking with kids and learning from kids and

207
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,200
doing this grassroots. Well, while being sure that we're not putting all of the burden for

208
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:16,120
change and labor on kids, but certainly listening to them to change things. I'll never forget these

209
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:20,760
stories. So HRP, we go around to a bunch of different schools, our PD model is built on

210
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:27,000
doing focus groups with young people. So we've spoken now to like thousands of kids and pretty

211
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,360
much in every focus group conversation, a kid brings up, if they have one, the SEL program.

212
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,800
And nine times out of 10, they always have the exact same complaint. And I think this really

213
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:43,720
gets to the heart of this. They always say, every day I'm forced to do some kind of reflection

214
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:48,920
activity. And they submit it into a system. And it's like, how are you doing today? And sometimes

215
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:54,600
like a Likert scale, sometimes you'd actually write it out. And the kids always say, I don't

216
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,840
like the system because if I report I'm doing bad, I have to go to the guidance counselor.

217
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:05,080
So what kids do is that, well, either they just don't do it. Or over time, they say they're

218
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:10,280
doing a lot better than they used to be doing before. And this has like a three pronged effect

219
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:16,440
because on the one hand, the school reads the data and sees, oh, the SEL program has made all the

220
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:22,200
kids happier because over time, all of their scores are going up. Therefore they reinvest in it.

221
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:27,800
Or second, everybody quits using it. So then the school's like, well, SEL programs don't work,

222
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,680
so we're not going to invest in them anymore. So now SEL just like is out the window. Or three,

223
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:41,000
kids no longer trust the adults to actually go to them about SEL issues because they're afraid that

224
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:46,760
if they go to an adult, it's going to trigger what they seem to be like an overblown response.

225
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,080
So it's like they want to be listened to, but they also don't want to feel like they're going

226
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,560
through this mandated system of maybe they don't like that guidance counselor. Maybe they just

227
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,880
don't like, they don't want to talk about it right now. They want other means of going about it,

228
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:04,440
which in my opinion, a good SEL program would recognize that. Like it would be much less

229
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:10,840
mandated check marks, step-by-step process, and a little more holistic and with a bunch of different

230
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:17,640
avenues in the same way that progressive education kind of does in curriculum. That's like the overall

231
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:23,880
idea. Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking of two things. One thing, like you mentioned, that's like,

232
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,760
that's kind of a funny example. Like, look, it works. They're all happy now.

233
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:34,920
Because I think so often, like one of my big critiques or like concerns with SEL is just

234
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:41,160
this huge emphasis on articulating, naming, and processing emotions, which for some kids is great.

235
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:46,440
Like, yes, they want to talk about it. It helps to talk about it. But like, actually, this was a quote

236
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:51,480
from one of the teachers I talked with for my own kind of discourse community focus group a year and

237
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:58,280
a half ago is she said, well, naming things isn't always helpful. Like, right? Like sometimes when

238
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:03,480
you name something, you actually constrict what it can be. And if you have the kid like circle the

239
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:09,080
face that you're feeling and they circle the sad face, that kind of shrunk, like the possibilities

240
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:14,760
of what they're feeling. Like now they are feeling a sad face. And again, it can be helpful and it

241
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:20,520
can't. So like you mentioned, what if there's a variety of avenues or some of the ways of like

242
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,320
responding to kids negative emotion isn't talking about it, which is kind of hard to think about

243
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:30,120
because we live in this society where if you don't talk about it, you're repressing it and like it

244
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:35,640
needs and I think in some ways that's a pushback against times of not being able to share negative

245
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:42,680
emotion. But yeah, I think about with SEL being celebrated as like, let's bring into awareness

246
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:48,200
how kids are feeling. That also means let's subject their social and emotional and even spiritual

247
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:54,040
worlds to intense surveillance. So yeah, there's that like kind of like the cognitive dissonance of

248
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,600
we want to value this, but are we just like surveilling it now and deciding what's best for

249
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,640
them based on this really vulnerable information they're sharing? The only other thing I was going

250
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:09,880
to share is a quote from Dr. Kelly Lee, who's at the University of California. I was recently

251
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:16,840
watching a webinar with her and she said, it's just so ironic how often in schools we tell kids,

252
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:23,640
you're a change maker, you are agentic, you can make change, you can be who you want to be,

253
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,800
but you can't change anything about my classroom or you can't change anything about our school. So

254
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,040
those things came to mind because definitely resonate with what you're saying.

255
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:37,400
I mean, yeah, I mean, it's definitely what the fact of the matter is that if you listen to kids,

256
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:43,400
chances are they're going to build not only a better curriculum and like a better, you know,

257
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,440
just general school system overall, but the SEL program is also probably going to be better.

258
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:53,080
They don't need to be hand crafting it, but if they give you feedback along the way,

259
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,320
and they'd say, this is what I want, this is what I'd rather see, you're going to be able to

260
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,360
identify the programs and procedures and all those different things that make the most sense

261
00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:05,880
for a group of kids. And there's going to be multiple options. It's not just going to be one

262
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:14,600
size fits all model. Just generally. So with that said, I think that's a good segue into something

263
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:22,120
that we had spoken about off air, which is, is it worth it slash how do you brand something that is

264
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:26,440
everything that we just said? Because we spoke for about like 15 minutes there contextualizing

265
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:32,360
what makes that different. And I think the rationale is typically like, well, give that an

266
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:37,560
acronym or give that a framework, give that like a new thing. And we were talking about this idea

267
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:45,160
of SEL SEJ, social, emotional health, social, emotional justice, as a framing that addresses

268
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,480
that. But I think you're kind of like thinking in a different headspace about that now and like

269
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,600
whether or not it's worth going down that route is more or more about that.

270
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,520
Yeah, this is why I value so many voices at the table, because my voice is very,

271
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,400
I always joke with friends, like, I'm very certain that I'm uncertain about everything.

272
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:10,520
That is the one thing I'm certain about. Because I do think I'm terrified of acronyms, honestly.

273
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:16,440
This is kind of weird. It's something I've been playing with. But I created a methodology for

274
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:21,560
the focus group I mentioned with teachers and was kind of like building my own way of analyzing.

275
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,960
And I've been writing an article about that and feeling a lot of pressure to name it.

276
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:30,920
If I'm going to put out this methodology that I kind of curated, I have to call it something.

277
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,080
And that's probably going to be an acronym, because it's like this long word. And so I'm

278
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:42,840
calling it, what am I calling it? I know the acronym, an Affective Feminist Relate, no,

279
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:49,960
an analysis, let's see, what am I calling it? The acronym is AFRAID, A-F-R-A-D, Affective Feminist

280
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,360
Relational Analysis of Discourse. And I'm like, that's perfect, because it's pronounced afraid.

281
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:58,040
I don't know if I'm actually going to publish it this way. But I'm like, that's perfect,

282
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:03,080
because it's like, I'm very wary of acronyms for some of the reasons we've been talking about.

283
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:10,120
I guess for listeners, for additional context, a few years ago, my committee chair at the time,

284
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:15,880
and I published a paper advocating for this SEL, SEJ, Social Emotional Learning for Social

285
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:22,920
and Emotional Justice. And I still stand behind all the ideas behind that. But like I'd been

286
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:29,320
talking about with Chris, I get really wary about the branding of things. I guess a couple

287
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:35,400
of the reasons I would push away from kind of an easy response of like, let's create a program,

288
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:43,720
brand it, maybe scale it up, mass produce it, is that it becomes, for one, it can be seen as like

289
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:52,600
a social justice flavor of SEL. Like if we have SEL, SEJ, that kind of acknowledges that SEL itself

290
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:59,000
is not necessarily anti-racist and doesn't necessarily acknowledge coloniality or whiteness.

291
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:05,240
So it becomes like, well, you can do general SEL, which doesn't talk about racism. Or you can do

292
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,720
like the anti-racist version, which scares me because it's seen as like, maybe there's

293
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,920
then a feminist version. Then there's a, it starts to segment all of these different systems of

294
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:21,400
oppression as like optional add-ons. So that's a concern I have. And another is kind of what

295
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:27,320
we've been talking about with SEL itself is it becomes such a huge umbrella term that it kind of

296
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,440
becomes emptied of meaning. When it's just thrown around as an acronym, I can do anything in the

297
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:39,480
name of SEL. I think we don't often think about why we're doing it or what's behind it or what it

298
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,920
means. So like acronyms can kind of, again, like kind of like the circling a sad face, it kind of

299
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:50,360
shuts down like what something can be. But then at the same time, that's why I started this kind of

300
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:55,480
by saying that I value other voices. Cause sometimes my friends even will say to me like,

301
00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:00,280
totally hear what you're saying. We have to call it something so that we can tell people what we're

302
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:06,840
doing and deliver it and package it. So those are some of my qualms. I think there's a way to give

303
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:13,080
something a name, use an acronym, create a grassroots really cool program and call it something

304
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,560
and be critical about like the co-opting or the commercialization of that label.

305
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:23,960
But I think that criticality like has to be there. Yeah, that's tricky. That's super tricky. Cause I

306
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:30,200
think about from like a PBL standpoint, I mean help PBL by itself as three, it's place-based,

307
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:37,240
problem-based and project-based. There's probably more. So then you have challenge-based you have,

308
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,720
there's a bunch of them. Like there's like 20, we have a list of these somewhere that are all

309
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:46,360
ostensibly the same thing. They all have like their own flavor. I mean, place-based learning

310
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:52,760
is project-based learning account, like accounting for place, but PBL already accounted for place,

311
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,160
but now we're adding the additional acronym on to, or I guess we're changing the letter of the

312
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:03,000
acronym to make that more apparent. So what we find is that when we travel around to different

313
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:09,000
schools from a PBL context, we'll go into the school, they'll say, oh, we don't do project-based

314
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,320
learning. We do challenge-based learning. And it's like, okay, well, what is that? And then they

315
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,080
describe project-based learning because when they were doing project-based learning, they said,

316
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:23,160
well, it didn't include X, Y, and Z and teachers were doing this, but then we'll go back two or

317
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:28,520
three years later and they shifted from CBL to some other framework because this framework includes

318
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:33,320
this thing and teachers weren't doing that. And I don't really know if this has anything to do

319
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:40,040
with the SCL component, but it's a multi-layer problem because on the one hand you have,

320
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,240
you have to be able to define what you're doing. And I think it is worth noting that

321
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,040
this is a different thing than it was before, but at the exact same time,

322
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,200
it shouldn't have been a different thing than it was before. Right?

323
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:57,320
Yeah, exactly. Like this is actually making me think of a conversation in one of our actually

324
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:03,720
recent podcasts about SCL and indigenous communities and indigenous ways of knowing and being and

325
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:10,280
relating. And one of my friends, Sequoia Dance-Layton, who's a PhD student at Washington

326
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:19,400
State University and also a member of the Shoshone Bannock tribe, she is a really great advocate for

327
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,320
not all communities want to call something SCL and need to be told that they must have it.

328
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:31,000
Because with what you're saying, I can see scenarios where someone comes into an indigenous

329
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:36,680
community and says, you need SCL. We'll create it with you. It can be based on your community

330
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:42,840
values. We'll use your terminology, but we want to give you SCL. And I can see so many communities

331
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:48,680
being like, so we do that. We don't call it that. We actually don't agree with some of the components,

332
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:57,640
but I don't want the evangelical drive of SCL to be that every school has their own customized SCL

333
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:02,440
if they don't resonate with that label. Or they're already doing things. Like you mentioned,

334
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:09,080
progressive education already does a lot of this stuff as far as valuing sociality and

335
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:15,240
emotionality. So yeah, another kind of with what you're saying, I worry about that fear of like,

336
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,080
if you aren't using the label, you're not doing it kind of thing, which isn't true.

337
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,640
Trey Lockerbie Yeah, you also get caught in the trap of like consuming the capitalist code.

338
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:31,000
Yeah. The acronym gets attached to like a brand name or to a label. Like shout out, I love EL

339
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,720
education, but we've been spaces where people will say like, oh, what you're doing is the EL

340
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:41,640
education, the crew curriculum or whatever. It's like, well, no, we're just talking about like,

341
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,080
frameworks concepts that have existed in academia for in this case, I think we're talking about

342
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,960
something like 100 years old, or like the castle framework even. Like we brought up castle as a

343
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:55,400
framework. Like, what's the crew curriculum? Yeah. But like, we don't have to go through their

344
00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:01,800
catalog of branded content that you purchase in order for it to be effective. This is a broad

345
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:10,360
ranging thing that is more deeper and nuanced than that. So I also fear that, that the more we focus

346
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:18,520
on names and acronyms that looking at the root systemic problems, the more likely we are to just

347
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:25,880
try to find a consumerist or capitalist solution to our problem, which, which relates it all back

348
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:31,320
to like, there's no magic potion. There's, there's no one size fits all solution. That's just going

349
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,000
to be, this is going to solve all of our SEL problems. So we're just going to buy that thing

350
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:42,440
and kids are going to be fixed or whatever that means. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I forget. I had a thought

351
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:50,920
something. I've lost it. I might come back. No, that's good. You're good. You're fine.

352
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:58,360
You're fine. We're just a wide range of conversation. So, so let's, let's then talk

353
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,520
about like the solutions focused element of this. So I think we've underpinned at least a baseline

354
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:10,440
for the, the theory and why it should be problematized SEL as a concept. Then how do,

355
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:16,440
how do educators actually figure out what to do? Like if there's all these different interpretations

356
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:22,760
and there's all these critiques of how SEL was implemented, we've, we've already outlined,

357
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:29,000
listen to kids and like ask them and figure out from kids, what, what's going on. Are there other

358
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:34,280
spaces or like researchers, academics, things that we should be considering foundational to

359
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:41,800
understanding SEL? Yeah. I would say one thing that I really resonated with me from talking,

360
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:47,320
I talked with six different elementary educators for part of the focus group discourse community.

361
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:53,720
I mentioned not just classroom teachers, but also a para educator, SEL specialist, a special ed

362
00:33:53,720 --> 00:34:00,920
teacher. And one of the biggest themes with what they were saying was we have so many options of

363
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,360
SEL curricula. Some schools do require like, we are doing second step, but some are like,

364
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,840
if you want to do character strong, if you want to do mind up, if you want to do ruler,

365
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,400
like any of it's good. And they're like, that's not helpful. There's so many resources. We have

366
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:22,360
so many resources. We don't need more resources. And we don't need more accountability. Like,

367
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,800
and there was some disagreement to that. One of the teachers actually did feel like we need more

368
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:32,040
like teachers to be held accountable for being, having fidelity. I don't know what the

369
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:38,200
verb is there, maintaining fidelity to the program. But what they don't have a lot of

370
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:43,640
time for is time to think critically. So I do think in itself, like that's something that

371
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,760
teachers can advocate for and especially administrators could advocate for is instead

372
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:55,240
of trying to protect this 30 minutes of SEL time or to get the money to purchase this big program,

373
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:01,560
what would happen if we had more? I mean, it's kind of like radical, like free play time.

374
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,240
Let's use that 30 minutes for another recess. There's social and emotional learning. That's

375
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:12,280
kind of a glib way to say it, but more time for like PD that is based on teachers talking with

376
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,840
each other. What are you doing in your classroom? Like what's working for your kids or what things

377
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:22,920
have parents brought up? So more time for just like talking with other people of kind of like

378
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,960
to piece together more grassroots approaches to SEL. But I also will say like kind of more

379
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:37,160
tangibly, Dina Simmons work is wonderful. She, do you know like Liberated is her organization.

380
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:44,040
So she's wonderful at emphasizing like, let's dismantle the deficit discourses around especially

381
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:49,720
like black and brown kids being framed as not having social emotional competence. Let's ditch

382
00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:56,840
that narrative and build with community assets, anti-racist approaches. Ciara Kahler-Jones is

383
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,600
another like person I would encourage any educator to learn more about. There's also

384
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:08,760
another thing I'll bring up because it's kind of like a elephant in the room with this conversation

385
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:16,600
is transformative SEL, which is CASEL's newest kind of social justice oriented approach to SEL,

386
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:22,680
which is claims to be rooted in community based rather than individual based and

387
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:28,440
acknowledging systems of oppression, acknowledging racism. So I think transformative SEL is

388
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,480
something that's like worth bringing to the table in these critical conversations. I'm still dubious

389
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:39,560
about some things. There's still a lot of emphasis on kids learning these skills and not always a

390
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:44,760
look in the mirror at an institutional level. But transformative SEL would be like another area I

391
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:51,400
would direct people to. Do you have anything to add to the list? I'm curious, like what would

392
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:59,720
human reservation advocates? I mean, I think from our angle, it would be taking all of those things

393
00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:04,920
and then looking at the foundations of a classroom. Like you had just said, like recess is super

394
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,880
important, but sadly in schools across the United States, that's becoming more and more rare, even

395
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,800
at an elementary school level. I mean, we would advocate for high schoolers should have recess.

396
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,480
Everyone should have recess. Kids like going outside. Kids like going outside when it's

397
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,880
negative 20 degrees outside. Speaking from experience of having to walk kids outside is

398
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:27,000
like, please come back in. But they love it. And that's important for them to be outside and being

399
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:33,800
with their friends. But there's also other things like why is it that 99.9% of school has to be so

400
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:39,560
competitive? Why do we have to focus on grades and ranking? And when we put kids in the groups,

401
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,280
why is it that they focus on things like, I want to make sure my grades protected,

402
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:50,920
so I don't want to work with so and so. And to me, that's highly problematic. The goal of working

403
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,600
in a group is to build on those collaborative skills, communication skills, but also just to

404
00:37:54,600 --> 00:38:01,080
relate to other people as human beings. So we need to find ways to move away from concepts like

405
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:08,520
grades, concepts like testing as this one and done style of assessment and move into a more

406
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,880
holistic lens in that angle, like in the way that we're actually structuring our class on how we're

407
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,760
giving kids feedback and just speaking with them broad. Like if you if you had a classroom where

408
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:24,360
kids work together and do let's say, like community service, or they're making an art project and

409
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,200
putting it up down the road, and they're talking to community leaders, etc. That's going to be

410
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,680
killer SEL. Like that's going to be so cool. Like they're going to connect with with other people,

411
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,440
they're going to learn from people that that they've never known before, they're going to

412
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,680
have people at different age levels, they're going to have to actually speak with each other

413
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:46,360
in a variety of means, participate digitally, and talk about like digital SEL and talking to

414
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:53,560
people online. That's not to say that SEL programs can't be important. It's just that at the systemic

415
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:58,360
level, the if the classroom is the antithesis to the SEL program, it seems like we're doing something

416
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:04,040
wrong. Definitely. And one other thing I was thinking about too, is I'm a big advocate for

417
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,320
being social and emotional has never been exclusive to humans. And so sometimes when

418
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:14,040
we think about ecological justice or climate justice, that's seen as like a separate thing,

419
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:20,200
like that is SEL. And I've been into like common-worlding pedagogies. Shout out to

420
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:25,640
common-worlding pedagogies of recognizing ourselves as always intricate members or

421
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:31,560
members of an intricate more than human system. And that's another thing I personally want to

422
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,760
explore a lot more is how do kids already see themselves as like members of a more than human

423
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:42,280
world. And like you mentioned, just going outside, being in the community, even inside,

424
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:48,600
like thinking about reframing how we see our cafeteria lunches and seeing ourselves as animals,

425
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:54,760
like all of that can be part of SEL too. So what like big, big picture SEL, sometimes I differentiate

426
00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:02,280
social and emotional learning from the SEL paradigm, kind of the bigger possibilities

427
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:07,160
and then the more branded possibilities. Yeah, yeah. Two more shout outs and then we'll do like

428
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,720
a final question. I would also add to the list, we always have those giant show notes.

429
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:18,280
Institute for Humane Education has a lot of really cool curricular activities centered on what you

430
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:23,240
were just saying. So centered on both connecting other people, but with an explicit focus on

431
00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:28,040
animals and like ethics and relating with nature, etc. They have a lot of interesting stuff.

432
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:34,600
And then Chef Anne Project, which is a way that you can actually dive into making like

433
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,080
farm to table lunches and like learning where your food comes from. We did a whole deep dive

434
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,520
on that. At some point we have a we had someone on our podcast that came and talked about like

435
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:48,120
journalism of food. And it's really interesting to know it's actually cheaper to get your food

436
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,720
farm to table in schools than it is to get it from like your corporate supplier and you

437
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:55,400
just have to work through a lot of different contracts, but it is cheaper in the long run.

438
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:03,880
But yeah, I think then in terms of just moving into like the cornerstone element of this

439
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:10,440
conversation and talking about SEL broadly, people now know perhaps some contextualized

440
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,360
information on like why we're talking about this. They maybe have problematized it a bit.

441
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,600
They see perhaps places they can turn to. Do you have any advice for educators that maybe just

442
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,920
listen to this conversation that are just like, okay, what now?

443
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:31,480
Yeah, I think, I mean, this is the advice for so many of the problems with education,

444
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:37,080
like get with the community, with other teachers, with other community members,

445
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:45,160
like don't try to operate alone is always a big one. I think also like kind of trusting in your

446
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:50,360
own practice, which again, I say with an asterisk because I've seen and heard about some pretty

447
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:56,840
atrocious classroom practices, but also a lot of really great stuff comes from teachers themselves.

448
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:02,120
So I think to have some trust of like, if you think something is really working with your

449
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:07,960
classroom, like at a social and emotional level, like believe in that even if it's not like showing

450
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:14,360
up in the scripted program. So like making space for that. I always try to like, I mean, I'm pretty

451
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,520
upfront about not being a K through 12 educator. So I never want to assume I like, I don't know

452
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,480
that lived experience, but I think recognizing that there is support in numbers,

453
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:32,360
unions, this can definitely be like part of union efforts. So yeah, like have some value,

454
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:39,560
the grassroots, like your own practices, value those and get together with other people.

455
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,640
I wish I had a silver bullet, but that's kind of what I got.

456
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,440
Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, if the kids in the room are enjoying what's going on,

457
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,640
they're telling you it's enjoying it and you're collecting feedback and they're like, this is

458
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:57,480
great. That that's all the real proof you need that your SEL program is working. Just a brief

459
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:04,680
anecdote. But like, I remember we had, this was during the hybrid year of COVID. So there were

460
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:12,920
10 to 15 kids in a room and then 10 to 15 kids online. And that year we kept all the kids

461
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:19,000
in the same room for a very long period of time. And then they went period to period

462
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:24,600
with the same group the entire day. So these kids were spending seven to eight hours a day

463
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:31,400
with the same 15 groups of kids. And as anyone might imagine that is either amazing or absolutely

464
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:40,120
awful depending on what group of kids, like for example, like what if, what if kids break up?

465
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,800
Typically, that's not a big deal that'll sit on opposite sides of the room. Well, not it's a

466
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:49,320
pretty big deal. There's only 15 kids in the room. So I know a lot of teachers really struggled with

467
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:55,000
like, I have heard ad nauseam people saying like, thank God, that's like, I'm so happy that we don't

468
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,200
have to deal with that anymore. But the exact same time I'll tell you from personal experience,

469
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:03,400
that was my favorite year teaching not because of the pandemic element, obviously. But it was my

470
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:08,040
favorite year teaching because I've never felt more connected to a group of kids. I sometimes envy

471
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,720
elementary school teachers because they get to do that. They can just have like this one group of

472
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:18,040
kids pretty much all day every day. And as a result, you're able to develop those systemic SEL

473
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:23,640
practices organically, like those kids, we would come in every day and play like random games,

474
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:28,040
and we just do it because that's what the kids like to do. And we didn't have to plan that there

475
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,920
was just a part of the day that this was like, this is what kids like doing. We did that we had

476
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:38,120
in jokes, we knew each other. So there's an element here too, of like scheduling design,

477
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:42,920
classroom design, even higher level design than classroom design to look at how can we develop

478
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:48,520
schools to be more SEL focused and really center community. So we're not so siloed and isolated.

479
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:53,720
And we have more space to connect with other people and with the world. We have more outdoor

480
00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:59,720
classrooms, etc. Yeah, I love that. I think I we need those stories of a little bit of pushback

481
00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:05,400
from those years of COVID of not like romanticizing it and denying the trauma a lot of people

482
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:10,360
experienced. But sure, there were I mean, there were some elements of like increased connection,

483
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:16,600
but I even felt to like I always joke about the black hole of black zoom squares where like

484
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:22,360
three people are talking. But that was also the year I think I got the most affirmative feedback

485
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:27,480
from students I ever have about social and emotional things of like, thank you for making

486
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:31,960
this classroom a space like you've been a rock or like, we feel safe to come to your class.

487
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:38,360
And I'm like, interesting, like it was just this kind of paradoxical time of like, like shit kind

488
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,600
of hit the fan. But then like what happened from that? Like we were kind of like had the bare bones

489
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:47,880
of like, what do we actually care about this year? So I like those stories of like some things,

490
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,760
sometimes good things can happen when the system is rocked a lot.

491
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:56,280
Thank you again for listening to our podcast at Human Restoration Project. I hope this conversation

492
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,600
leaves you inspired and ready to start making change. If you enjoyed listening, please consider

493
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:05,480
leaving us a review on your favorite podcast player. Plus find a whole host of free resources,

494
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:11,720
writings and other podcasts all for free on our website, HumanRestorationProject.org. Thank you.

‍